meeting with land shepherd

Today I demonstrated that the land search code is indeed functional, having finally had an opportunity to bring it up to speed with the current revision of libsecondlife.

We are reaching a key turning point, and a meeting with Land Shepherd was needed to determine how we will proceed in this project. There are decisions to be made here, running a landbot is a daily task which requires maintenance and upkeep, and there are questions, do we want to facilitate propagation of a lot of landbots by open source, or to run a system ourselves.

Additionally, some people may think that I am interested in indefinately working on this project, but the truth is it is a financial loss for me to do so, it was from the beginning, I have other priorities and far more interesting things to do…  And add to this the collective stupidity I am having to endure on the part of people who simply, IMHO, are undeserving of my time, I am expressing my displeasure and potential mechanisms to discontinue my involvement. I just don’t like a lot of them and it’s really not a good motivation for me to open source something that they will abuse in the same way they feel free to abuse me. Shame on you, btw.

Below is a log of the conversation, some edits were made, largely to remove my list of friends logging in (because you’d harrass them) or long lists of land search results (the point is made with a few lines)
[21:28] FWord Utorid: ok so the search component is now working 100%
[21:28] FWord Utorid: and the servers are up and running
[21:28] FWord Utorid: oh sorry
[21:28] FWord Utorid: so tiny i don’t want to smush you
[21:28] FWord Utorid: i am working on doing some testing on buy code
[21:29] Land Shepherd: oh cool, that’s a list of land for sale?
[21:29] FWord Utorid: yes

[ sl viewer crashed, so i am using the bot to type ]
[21:31] Angelica Losangeles: tp is wacked
[21:31] Angelica Losangeles: ok the TOP10 preset
[21:31] Angelica Losangeles: shows the land that is cheapest on the grid
[21:31] Land Shepherd: TP is always wacked lol
[21:31] Angelica Losangeles: yes
[21:31] Angelica Losangeles: for all sizes
[21:31] Angelica Losangeles: that is a BIG issue to work around on the bot
[21:31] Land Shepherd: yeah
[21:31] Angelica Losangeles: searching for land is done, though
[21:32] Angelica Losangeles: also, i am working on a distributed system
[21:32] Angelica Losangeles: oh look fword was logged out

[ snipped land search results ]

[21:32] Land Shepherd: looks good
[21:32] Angelica Losangeles: ok.
[21:32] Angelica Losangeles: let me finish the crashed viewer :O then i will brb
[21:32] Angelica Losangeles: lol
[21:33] Land Shepherd: ok hehe
[21:33] Angelica Losangeles: ok. so the next step, which is the list, is basically to do some testing on buy code.
[21:33] Angelica Losangeles: and i have code for purchasing, code for deed to group, code to buy for group
[21:33] Angelica Losangeles: but it needs testing to be sure it all works
[21:34] Angelica Losangeles: ina has chopped up a couple of 16m parcels on her estate
[21:34] Angelica Losangeles: so we won’t need to do anything with that, i will just have to be able to work it out
[21:34] Land Shepherd: ok
[21:34] Angelica Losangeles: also today found out one more method of speeding up bots
[21:34] Angelica Losangeles: which I am going to have to research
[21:35] Angelica Losangeles: and also found a couple of other ways of keeping them from logging out
[21:35] Angelica Losangeles: but the real questions come down to
[21:35] FWord Utorid: how we will manage the process
[21:35] FWord Utorid: basically the issue is this
[21:36] FWord Utorid: open source, i think we would be facilitating a mechanism for abuse. if the way the people have been treating me in this process is an indication, it would be potentially disasterous

[21:36] FWord Utorid: if you are firmly for that, then fine, we will, but i think we ought to do a group run bot instead
[21:36] FWord Utorid: and have tightly controlled source
[21:37] Land Shepherd: What kind of peer review can we have for the source code?
[21:37] FWord Utorid: well
[21:37] FWord Utorid: the question on source code comes down to this
[21:37] FWord Utorid: if people are going to be getting copies
[21:37] FWord Utorid: then it is open source
[21:37] FWord Utorid: you can’t trust people not to share
[21:38] FWord Utorid: if it is closed source, then we provide reporting on what land is bought and so on

[21:39] Land Shepherd: Well, I discussed this with the group awhile ago, and they were all in favor for open source. That was two months ago though. Maybe we should have another meeting.
[21:39] FWord Utorid: i will not be present
[21:39] FWord Utorid: ok
[21:39] FWord Utorid: i have grown weary of the bullshit a lot of them have been putting on me for having other things to do in my life, and it shows.
[21:40] FWord Utorid: i have tons of things to do and don’t need the assault
[21:40] FWord Utorid: so meet with them and determine a resolution
[21:40] Land Shepherd: okay
[21:41] FWord Utorid: it basically drains my energy to sit there daily and get bitched at
[21:41] FWord Utorid: ok anyway
[21:41] FWord Utorid: something more pleasant
[21:43] FWord Utorid: my thought on open source
[21:43] FWord Utorid: is to release the old code
[21:43] FWord Utorid: let them fix it up if they want
[21:43] FWord Utorid: because i have code that can load up hundreds of bots
[21:43] FWord Utorid: and I’m not releasing that
[21:43] FWord Utorid: people would abuse it
[21:44] Land Shepherd: How would a group run landbot work? Someone would have to manage all of that.
[21:45] FWord Utorid: yes, someone would. not sure how that would go, maybe that’s something to discuss.
[21:45] FWord Utorid: basically, there would be funds distribution issues.
[21:45] FWord Utorid: and tier costs to maintain
[21:45] FWord Utorid: and also some land would probably be unfavorable to own.
[21:45] FWord Utorid: and writing code to rule all of that out would be more work and time
[21:47] FWord Utorid: so we can check the code in for the previous version if that’s what ‘everyone’ wants, and go from there, or we can pursue a group managed approach.
[21:47] FWord Utorid: if we don’t release code, the abuse will come back to me, if we do release code, the abuse will be on the system.
[21:52] Land Shepherd: Yeah, I don’t know how a group run landbot would work. That’s a big change. First though we need a landbot that is operational, then I guess we’ll have to decide about the rest.
[21:52] FWord Utorid: the code provided was operational
[21:52] FWord Utorid: ok
[21:52] FWord Utorid: i’ve done a lot of work on planning an entire operation
[21:52] FWord Utorid: but as i said… i don’t see the benefit of continuing without an answer to that question
[21:53] FWord Utorid: these people have been abusing me for quite some time
[21:53] FWord Utorid: for me
[21:53] Land Shepherd: ignore them
[21:53] FWord Utorid: that’s easy to say
[21:53] FWord Utorid: but keep in mind i have a life to live and other projects to work on
[21:53] FWord Utorid: it does get old to have them constantly calling me a scammer
[21:53] FWord Utorid: or running around and basically putting me down
[21:54] FWord Utorid: i have a LOT of work to do on **************’s project
[21:55] FWord Utorid: anyway
[21:55] FWord Utorid: at this point i do recommend you have a discussion with whomever with regards to what the process should be
[21:55] FWord Utorid: the important thing to keep in mind is this
[21:55] FWord Utorid: maintaining a landbot is an ongoing project
[21:55] FWord Utorid: things change in sl very frequently
[21:55] FWord Utorid: libsecondlife changes frequently
[21:56] FWord Utorid: every day yohan and elanthius have to monitor new developments in the technology
[21:56] FWord Utorid: for me, the costs will soon reach a point far outweighing any compensation
[21:57] Land Shepherd: lol
[21:57] Land Shepherd: I can’t give you any more money though until there is a working landbot
[21:57] FWord Utorid: i understand. i don’t want any money.
[21:57] FWord Utorid: find out from them what it is they expect and we will determine a path
[21:58] FWord Utorid: it may be best to simply open the old code and part ways, i’d do some cleanup on the documentation, and at least the next phase would be off to a good start.
[21:58] FWord Utorid: but really
[21:58] FWord Utorid: i mean
[21:59] FWord Utorid: i had sl & rl work to do, christmas, moving, many other things, and … i just don’t need the abuse any more. who does?
[21:59] FWord Utorid: maybe if you were at the recieving end of it you would understand.
[22:02] Land Shepherd: I’ll chat with some of the people who paid into it besides myself. They were all for open source for a variety of reasons. I was the only one who voted for closed source because I wasn’t too sure of how open source would go.
[22:02] FWord Utorid: ok. it’s a key point to determine before moving forward.
[22:02] FWord Utorid: i will continue with testing things and other items that are on the published agenda.
[22:04] Land Shepherd: ok, I’ll see what they say
[22:04] FWord Utorid: ok.
[22:05] Land Shepherd: okay, so what are the options again? If its open source, what can you produce? What will you make if its closed source?
[22:06] FWord Utorid: if it is open source, we will release the old code
[22:06] FWord Utorid: if it is closed source, we will need to determine what the requirements are for a group managed process, and go from there
[22:06] FWord Utorid: the old code can and will likely be corrected to produce a working product, as the land search function is still operational, and there are likely only minor changes needed.
[22:08] Land Shepherd: So there will be the old code release for open source and nothing else?
[22:08] FWord Utorid: as it is now, i do not see myself continuing to reward the behavior of those people in the group who have basically played the grinch who stole christmas and continually assault me with their rumors.
[22:08] FWord Utorid: i cannot see releasing something that can ultimately harm the community.
[22:08] FWord Utorid: if we release the old code, then i will help to get it to an operational state.
[22:09] FWord Utorid: the efforts i have made thus far have largely been in the area of getting things set up and documenting the process.
[22:09] FWord Utorid: and of course defending myself and having meetings.
[22:10] FWord Utorid: people have turned this into their opportunity to invade my life and that’s unacceptable.
[22:11] Land Shepherd: Who is doing that? Nimrod?
[22:11] FWord Utorid: every day I am getting bombarded by IMs or hearing that someone, somewhere, is basically putting me down for my involvement in this project.
[22:11] FWord Utorid: the group becomes this huge collection of insanity
[22:11] FWord Utorid: calling me a scammer
[22:11] FWord Utorid: saying I don’t know what I am doing
[22:11] FWord Utorid: etc
[22:12] FWord Utorid: ls
[22:12] Angelica Losangeles: * LAND: 405 results.  ————————————
[22:12] Angelica Losangeles: * LAND: 480 results.  ————————————
[22:12] Angelica Losangeles: ~~ 8.3 L$/sqm L$133 16sqm secondlife://Saint Clair/38/142/0
[22:12] Angelica Losangeles: ~~ 8.3 L$/sqm L$1600 192sqm secondlife://Birchwood/58/212/0
[22:12] Angelica Losangeles: ~~ 8.3 L$/sqm L$2000 240sqm secondlife://Raimondo/117/49/32
[22:12] Angelica Losangeles: ~~ 8.3 L$/sqm L$800 96sqm secondlife://Neverov/188/54/0

[ land search results snipped ]

[22:12] FWord Utorid: i do know what i am doing.
[22:13] FWord Utorid: i am just busy, and the distraction and the harm they are causing with their nonsense is not worth it.
[22:13] FWord Utorid: would you work at a job every day where people are calling you a criminal and a liar?
[22:13] FWord Utorid: I wouldn’t.
[22:13] FWord Utorid: if they will abuse me, they will abuse the landbot.
[22:14] Land Shepherd: OK yeah I understand that, its just I don’t know how closing the source will change things. They will still abuse you most likely.
[22:14] FWord Utorid: yes.
[22:14] FWord Utorid: it will simply limit the ability to abuse the system.
[22:14] FWord Utorid: and it will define the nature of what we are doing more clearly.
[22:15] FWord Utorid: one thing most definately needs to be corrected, and that is abusing the IM group to attack my integrity.
[22:16] FWord Utorid: you have seen today and through efforts on the website that I am attempting to get this all resolved.
[22:16] FWord Utorid: the notion that I am a criminal or that I am trying to cheat you needs to be eliminated.
[22:16] FWord Utorid: I am not a prison warden. I do not have to control the unruly inmates.
[22:17] FWord Utorid: anyway, i’ve said enough at this point.
[22:17] FWord Utorid: the decisions on how we are to proceed need to be made, and not by me.
[22:18] FWord Utorid: the decisions with regards to my involvement in the long term will need to be made by me, but i would like us to get to a point where we have some closure of the first phase and a change in the status quo of the current way of doing things.
[22:18] Land Shepherd: Yes, I understand. I just need as much information as possible to answer their questions and so forth.
[22:18] FWord Utorid: ok sure. let’s talk about how a group managed effort would go
[22:19] Land Shepherd: yes, this would be run on the servers you have rented?
[22:19] FWord Utorid: yes.
[22:19] FWord Utorid: i have access to four servers now
[22:19] Land Shepherd: Would the bot avatars be public? Or does everyone need to add their own avatars?
[22:20] FWord Utorid: hmm… well… there is a need for clarity on my part. essentially, if it is necessary to pay for premium monthly in order to buy land for a group
[22:20] FWord Utorid: if it is not necessary, then we could use any avatars.
[22:20] FWord Utorid: if it is necessary, then we would need people to contribute their avatars to be run in the process.
[22:21] FWord Utorid: there would need to be some way to pool funding and to pay the group tier
[22:21] FWord Utorid: i am not sure how that would operate
[22:21] FWord Utorid: i do not want to be responsible for their funding
[22:21] FWord Utorid: it is clear to me that they can do nothing but bicker and blame about anything financial
[22:23] Land Shepherd: Here is a thought. What if this thing was run like a regular landbot operation but people just invested into with tier contributions? Then they would get a share of the group dividends.
[22:23] FWord Utorid: so some sort of assurances would need to be provided
[22:23] FWord Utorid: ok
[22:23] FWord Utorid: if we were to do it that way, then you would need to manage the finances
[22:23] FWord Utorid: i don’t want more bs.
[22:23] FWord Utorid: and there is an issue
[22:24] FWord Utorid: if you looked on yohan’s blog
[22:24] FWord Utorid: he’s lost money in the past due to miscalculations
[22:24] FWord Utorid: sometimes the bot may buy land that is not desirable simply because it meets price requirements
[22:24] FWord Utorid: it would take a bit of work coding it to make it possible to avoid such things
[22:24] Land Shepherd: He said he switched the order of the search and ended up being the highetst priced land instead of hte lowest priced.
[22:25] FWord Utorid: if (price > acceptableprice) { donotbuytheparcel(); }
[22:25] FWord Utorid: he has been making a point of criticizing me to other people for my coding skills and he chose a poor way to search for land.
[22:26] FWord Utorid: that is … good to know… that he is fallable in so many ways.
[22:26] Land Shepherd: no one is perfect
[22:26] FWord Utorid: considering we are essentially competing with him, it is good that he’s not.
[22:27] FWord Utorid: ok
[22:27] FWord Utorid: so
[22:27] FWord Utorid: the issue of finances and managing the process
[22:27] FWord Utorid: if this is a group run operation, then there is going to be a need to monitor it
[22:27] FWord Utorid: also, if there is finance on the project
[22:27] FWord Utorid: accountability on my part would come with a price, as does bandwidth and so on
[22:27] FWord Utorid: people involved in the project will need to be appraised through some form of reporting
[22:28] FWord Utorid: so they know they are receiving their earnings fairly and so on
[22:28] Land Shepherd: yeah
[22:28] FWord Utorid: and there will also need to be some sort of a process if losses are incurred
[22:29] Land Shepherd: sounds very complicated, I’m not sure if its possible given the level of mistrust
[22:30] FWord Utorid: well, yes. none of this is simple.
[22:30] FWord Utorid: for me, one of the requirements perceived was to be mindful of the interests of the community, at least from an abuse perspective.
[22:32] FWord Utorid: that’s why I am posing the question now before we go any further with this.
[22:33] FWord Utorid: while I do not appreciate the abuse I am taking in this process, we will find a method for resolving a first phase. at that point, either i can continue, or someone else can pick up, but it’s a loss for me either way.
[22:34] FWord Utorid: Yohan works on his landbot every day.
[22:34] Land Shepherd: well, at least you tried and learned some new code in the process anyway. Yeah, takes a lot of tweaks he says.
[22:35] FWord Utorid: The only person I am genuinely concerned with in this process is you.
[22:35] FWord Utorid: You have been patient and I appreciate it.
[22:35] FWord Utorid: I want to make sure we can get something to you that is useful.
[22:35] FWord Utorid: That’s why you have the code to the old program.
[22:36] FWord Utorid: and why there is some code and documentation on the website.
[22:36] FWord Utorid: I am not sure what other questions people might have about running this in the long term
[22:36] FWord Utorid: but a successful landbot project IS a long term endeavor with things to be maintained daily
[22:36] FWord Utorid: it is not something that you write once and it continues to work.
[22:37] FWord Utorid: That is why I abandoned the project the first time, the fellow didn’t want to invest the time and effort to do it as a business.
[22:37] FWord Utorid: people think that it’s a free lunch but it’s not.
[22:37] Land Shepherd: Is this Thai Racer you mean?
[22:37] FWord Utorid: Yes.
[22:37] FWord Utorid: there were a number of other issues in the process that were problematic.
[22:38] FWord Utorid: But the two key issues were, it is an ongoing process and things change daily with libsecondlife, and he lost interest in that.
[22:38] FWord Utorid: The program was tested to the point where it was working, and as I understand it, he never downloaded it.
[22:39] FWord Utorid: I refunded his investment capital, but I did expend time on the project.
[22:39] FWord Utorid: anyway, if you have more questions about a long term approach, let me know.
[22:40] Land Shepherd: ok I’ll get back to later about this, could take awhile to get everyone’s opinion though.
[22:40] FWord Utorid: as with all business there are always risks.
[22:40] FWord Utorid: ok
[22:40] FWord Utorid: i will post this to the blog if that’s ok?
[22:40] Land Shepherd: post what to do the blog?
[22:40] FWord Utorid: our communication on this process.
[22:41] Land Shepherd: Why?
[22:41] FWord Utorid: I think it will help people to understand the nature of our concerns.
[22:41] Land Shepherd: What are the concerns?
[22:41] FWord Utorid: that we are putting time and thought into how this could impact the community.
[22:42] FWord Utorid: an explanation that it is an ongoing process that involves risk will also help to explain things.
[22:43] Land Shepherd: ok, no problem. I don’t know if it will help them understand though.
[22:43] FWord Utorid: that’s true. but better to communicate openly. it will be on the blog this evening.
[22:44] FWord Utorid: talk to people, let me know what the consensus is.
[22:45] Land Shepherd: okay, well have a good night then
[22:45] FWord Utorid: you too land shepherd.